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Mon, Nov. 29th, 2004, 08:00 pm
cecerose: Merry Channukah. NOT.
(Cross posted from my LJ) Since I converted formally last year, I find myself more reflexively Jewish. If you're looking for affirmation of your identity as a nonChristian or Atheist this probably isn't a good time of year to expect it. I certainly don't, though I find myself nosing in drugstores and Target to see if they Hannukah cards and menorahs. To a certain degree, I've been pleasantly surprised. One trend I'm disturbed by is the joint celebration of Christmas *and* Hannukah by interfaith families. I don't think it's possible to celebrate both: In my mind you should choose one another - in other words, if you have children, you should choose to raise them either Jewish or Christian, but not both. If you're in an interfaith relationship, but have no children, I think there's a little more flexibility. When I was growing up, I had a very strong identity as a Roman Catholic. I knew I wasn't a generic Christian, but had been brought up within an ancient faith and tradition with specific customs and beliefs that differed from other Christian denominations. I knew that being a Catholic was NOT the same as being a Methodist or a Presbyterian or a Baptist. To celebrate both Hannukah and Christmas together implies that somehow they're similar and therefore interchangeable. Of course I could be snide and point out the fact that Christianity co-opted and incorporated religious and cultural traditions of those they converted was one of the reasons it became so wide spread. There's a very strong temptation to say: "All religions are the same." They're aren't. And they shouldn't be. One of the bad side effects of multiculturalism and religious relativism is to "dumb" down religious traditions and cultures to their most common denominators and deny their very real differences, complexities and contributions. And in the process, I think people end up losing a very real sense of connection to their faith and tradition. Being a convert, I find myself more comfortable participating in services and ritual observance than many Jews I've met. It's pretty telling when I'm asked to recite Ha-motzi at the Oneg and can do so flawlessly, whereas the women who lit the Shabbat candles at the beginning of the service looked clearly ill at ease. Hannukah, in the Jewish calendar, is a relatively minor festival. It's not even mentioned in the Torah. It does commemorate a historical event -- in fact a very ugly one, depending on how you look at it. Yes, they light candles and it's the festival of lights and how can you say jelly donuts are a bad thing? To me, that's not the point. Being Jewish means being different. And being different from the mainstream imposes a the additional responsibility of nurturing and transmitting a strong a sense of identity and connection to belief and tradition. Instead of seeing it as a chore or something you've always done, you have to embrace it. Children are pretty smart. They know if you're going through the motions. So, if you're just going through the motions, it's better in my mind not to raise your children anything at all.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 04:27 am (UTC)
cecerose
Yes, in part. But, I'm seriously disturbed about a few things I've noticed. My old boss at work who retired was married to a Jew. They had three children, none of whom identify as being Jewish. My understanding is that most children of Jewish/Christian interfaith families where there isn't a clear choice often choose NOT to identify as Jewish or Christian.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 04:51 am (UTC)
gothgrrl13

i don't think celebrating both Hannukah and Christmas together implies that they're interchangeable, or that you can't do it. holidays can be fun, religious, or anywhere in between. growing up we celebrated Hannukah and Christmas and both were just for fun. if anything i knew far more about the story behind Hannukah than i did behind Christmas. i figure that virtually all holidays are great and there's no harming in celebrating. the more happiness the better. even though i consider myself a jew (though i'm not yet, officially speaking) i celebrate all sorts of non-Jewish holidays - Christmas, Diwali, Samhain, Guru Nanak's birthday.... to me holidays are about having a good time - learning about and sharing friends' cultures, sitting down and talking over whatever meal is appropriate to the occasion. while i don't celebrate any non-Jewish holidays in the religious sense, i still think that they're worth celebrating for the happiness factor. just as i invite all my non-Jewish (and Jewish) friends to Shabbat dinners and, when I've the time and space, Hannukah latke parties, so i enjoy being asked to celebrate my friends' holidays with them. holidays should be a reason to bring people together, not drive them apart.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 05:10 am (UTC)
cecerose: Three Jews, Ten Opinions...
Well, I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with you. I do feel very different for the reasons I've outlined another comment below.
The word "holidays" is a corruption of phrase "Holy Days" -- it bothers me that these days which have a very specific meaning are in essence being watered down and just another excuse to celebrate. Am I saying you or your children can't go to a Christmas party if invited? Or participate in a gift exchange at work? No. I am saying that you need to be thoughtful about how you choose to participate in Christmas activities as a Jew and if you are raising your children as Jewish, that it's inappropriate to celebrate Christmas at home in any form.
But that's just my opinion.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 05:27 am (UTC)
angel_thane
i don't think celebrating both Hannukah and Christmas together implies that they're interchangeable... </i> even though i consider myself a jew (though i'm not yet, officially speaking) i celebrate all sorts of non-Jewish holidays - Christmas, Diwali, Samhain, Guru Nanak's birthday.... </i> IMNAAHO, there is a BIG difference between celebrating two holidays as one, and celebrating holidays individually. Sure, get in on the cultural aspect of Xmas (gifts, fruit cake, etc...) and skip on the religious ones (jesus, Santa Claus, mary, etc...) That's one thing But to have Channumas? That's something else entirely. And that does sugest that they're interchangeable.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 04:54 am (UTC)
fred_chan

Wouldn't discarding one of the two holidays make it seem more like they are similar and interchangeable? It's sort of like saying to your children, "You know, these holidays are sort of repetitious--let's just throw one out." It seems to me that children and their parents are more likely to keep in touch with traditions if they actually keep them, not throw them away in favor of something that's percieved to be "better" for them.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 05:05 am (UTC)
cecerose: This is just my opinion, of course...
Traditions have meaning. And to celebrate a holiday outside of its context of its meaning really does it a disservice.
Hannukah is a celebration of the triumph of the Jewish people after a time of forced assimilation. Christmas celebrates Christ's birth. A central tenet of Christianity it came to replace the covenant of the "Old Testment." In Judaism, there is no "Old Testement," there is nothing to replace, the Covenant continues.
Am I saying not to allow your children to learn about Christmas or participate in school celebrations if you're raising them Jewish? No, not at all. But I am saying that to try to celebrate both Christmas and Hannukah at home and as a family is a disservice to both faiths. They are, fundamentally, not the same thing.
Does that make sense? I'm not trying to get you to agree, but to understand where I'm coming from.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 05:22 am (UTC)
tiferet: Re: This is just my opinion, of course...

Well, the thing is, the way most people celebrate 'Christmas' really has nothing to do with Jesus Christ--and I think for parents of small and school-aged children, it's a lot harder to ignore Santa Claus than it is to ignore Jesus. I have no opinion on whether people 'should' or 'shouldn't' celebrate Christmas--I know non-interfaith Jewish families that celebrate Christmas as one of our secular, cultural traditions in this country, but of course, a convert is looked at very differently if s/he continues to do Christmas and I suppose I can understand why. However, if one celebrates Chanukah as Chanukah, I'm not sure I understand how one could possibly confuse it with Christmas because they're really not very similar.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 05:27 am (UTC)
fred_chan: Re: This is just my opinion, of course...

I just don't see why celebrating both holidays necessarily has to mean taking them out of context or making them the same holiday. A lot of interfaith families celebrate both independently of each other (especially since Channukah often doesn't fall right over Christmas anyway). And they also teach that the two are not fundamentally the same thing by following their traditions independently. I just don't see a conflict there. I really have more of a problem with people who keep Channukah tress or other co-opted Christmas traditions (and I actually don't even have much of a problem with those people). What you're saying makes sense, and I see where you're coming from. I'm not trying to convince you of anything either, just getting my own opinion out there too.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 06:11 am (UTC)
real_bethy

I don't agree that both holidays should be mashed together into some sort of catch-all merrychanuramatetdan, but I do think that it is possible for all the holidays to find a peaceable place together in the same calender. I mean, as individuals who have or are in the process of converting, I think we are all very conscious of the fact that our families look forward to egg nog and turkey while we are lighting "funny candlesticks" (as my mother calls them) and snacking on latkes. My parents are finally starting to accept my Jewishness, but it makes them nervous because they a) don't really know any Jewish people and b) they are afraid that they will never have me home for the holidays or see their potential grandbabies open presents. I, personally, am happy to share Christmas with my family, as long as they are aware that I am there in more of an observer context than a participant context. I keep my holidays separate, but try very hard to include everyone with everything. I know that some people would say it is hypocritical to spin a dreidel and then decorate a Christmas tree a week later, but I suppose that because I am a World Religons student, I am at home straddling the gap between faiths.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 12:18 pm (UTC)
mike72486
I'm going to have to agree with you. I go to school with a number of kids who were raised doing both Christmas and Hannukah, sometimes complete with a 'Hannukah bush' along Easter and Pesach. Do any of them now identify as Jews? No. But do they identify as Christians either? No. And as they tell it, this mostly comes from not being really taught about either faith.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 01:38 pm (UTC)
estherchaya

Speaking as a child that grew up in a house celebrating Chanukah and Christmas (and Easter/Passover), I agree with you. My father was in no way religious, but grew up in a typical American family (therefore, christmas and easter celebrated in a secular fashion). My mother is not halachically Jewish, but had a strong sense of Jewish identity (at least culturally). The result was no religious anything. My brother and I went to Hebrew school and synagogue as kids, until my father stopped being out to sea so much. So we lit a menorah (reading the blessings out of "To Be a Jew"), and had an Xmas tree. We had Easter Eggs (though I was 10 or so before I really realized that Easter had anything to do with that Jesus-guy), and ham-n-cheese on matzoh. Well, I hated ham. I usually had peanut butter on matzoh during passover. That was sort of it. Yes, as an adult, I identify myself as a Jew. Far more than my parents ever would have wanted. I'm pretty sure my father doesn't even understand what "Orthodox" really means other than, "my daughter has gone off her rocker." However, growing up, I really struggled with questions of faith. When people asked what religion I was, I felt like something was wrong with me. Everyone else seemed to have a religion, but not me. I couldn't even say that I was nothing, because in a lot of ways I identified myself as Jewish. I always knew growing up that I would raise my children in one faith. (and that it would probably be Judaism). I always felt, growing up, that at least if I'd been raised with something, I'd have something specific to "rebel" against, so at least I'd KNOW what I believed. But with nothing, I had no way to define my beliefs. I'm not blaming my parents. They did what was natural to them. My mother's goal was to teach "tolerance" and expose me to a variety of religions (and she succeeded... Judaism, Christianity [specifically Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian], Buddhism, and Islam... at least those are the ones I can remember). This is good in theory, but it created a lot of identity problems for me in the end. My brother, I should note, is not religious in any way shape or form. I think he's an atheist, which isn't surprising as G-d was not an entity in our house.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 04:20 pm (UTC)
cecerose: Bingo.
I always felt, growing up, that at least if I'd been raised with something, I'd have something specific to "rebel" against, so at least I'd KNOW what I believed. But with nothing, I had no way to define my beliefs.
Absolutely. That's why I am extremely grateful for having such a strong religious identity. You need something to question and to wrestle with, even if in the end you choose to reject it.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 03:46 pm (UTC)
cellio

I agree with you; if you try to do all religions you end up doing none of them. I wrote more about the Christmas/Channukah thing in my journal.
Tue, Nov. 30th, 2004 03:49 pm (UTC)
gemmintheruff

I don't agree that celebrating the holidays together is equivalent to saying that they are the same. I do believe that it is equivalent to saying that the religions are equally worthy of respect. I think when my mother chose to "celebrate" Christmas (read: everyone got together to open gifts on one day instead of eight), she did so for practical rather than religioos reasons. We kids already had the time off from school. She and my father had the family business closed, as well. There were only one day's worth of huge meals and therefore dishes. When planning for ten children (and sometimes their children!), practicality is a useful skill.
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